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Talk:Archangel Michael

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I feel like this is going to end up into an edit war if I revert the previous edit, and I really wish not to lock any article from being editted. However, the Index atwiki references (as far as I can tell with a machine translator) that the reason why Gabriel took the name of Misha (a man's name) was because it was derived from the Russian name Mikhail which is the Russian equivalent of Michael. Can somebody who read at least up to volume 21 verify this?---TheGreatEye 02:35, March 8, 2011 (UTC)

In episode 17 of Season 1 I remember Kanzaki saying something in the lines that "Misha isn't her name, it should be Sasha, however there are cases where the name can not be changed because the name reveals the purpose that one got from God", from what I understood Michael couldn't switch to 'Sasha' because it would have lost it's attribute of "the Power of God", I haven't eyed much that novel though, perhaps it's better explained there.Okashira - Imbued with Gold - 04:43, March 8, 2011 (UTC)

I've read Vol20, where Misha is explained to be a name of Michael's, NOT Gabriel's according to Fiamma of the Right. That fact meant during Angel Fall while it was Gabriel whose place is thrown down from Heaven, Michael was the one in reality that fell. Since it was Michael that fell, Fiamma was able to control Gabriel's powers for the Star of Bethlehem (due to the link of Michael, his own alignment), and that many people refer to the Archangel that Fiamma summoned as Misha and not Gabriel in the novels. The only exception is at the end when Gabriel took back its body and tried to melt the North Pole that people called it Gabriel (well, those who realised the switch is gone anyway, Styil didn't knew 'Misha' is no longer Michael in Vol22. I got that from personally reading the novels, so if anyone wants to disagree please provide references. Flere821 07:33, March 8, 2011 (UTC)

  • Vol.12 p.212 ワシリーサ「そう言えば、サーシャちゃんに宿っていた『天使の力(テレズマ》』って後方の青色(ガブリエル)なんでしょ?」
  • Vol.20 p.169 フィアンマ「『御使い堕ろし(エンゼルフォール)』時、不完全な状態で現れた天使は、自らの名をミーシャと呼んでいたそうだな」「ミハイルは『ミカエル』の別名だ。『ガブリエル』の名には相応しくない。にも拘らず、あの大天使は自らの名をミーシャと呼んだんだ。神に作られた役割そのものであるはずの名前を。これがどれだけ重要な事か理解できるか?」--Klobis 13:48, March 10, 2011 (UTC)
That's nice and all but can you tell us what it means (machine translations is not cut it here)? And kindly explain to us why you believe Misha is not Michael.---TheGreatEye 15:00, March 11, 2011 (UTC)

Rough translation:

  • Vasilisa: The "telesma" which dwelled in Sasha was Gabriel, right?
  • Fiamma: At the time of "angel fall", the angel who appeared in an incomplete state have called her own name Misha. --Mikhail is another name of "Michael". It is not good for the name of "Gabriel". However, that archangel called her own name Misha. It is the name that should be role itself made by God. Can you understand how long this is to be important? --Klobis 16:18, March 11, 2011 (UTC)
The first part could easily described as Vasilisa simply speculating about which Angel's telesma was inside Sasha. It is not incorrect at that the time however, since they believed it Gabriel who possessed Sasha's form as Misha at that time.
Now the second part is a lot harder to understand since it maybe the translation's fault. In my opinion, I'll believe Fiamma's words on this since he actually summoned and controlled an angel down from heaven.
The name Misha is derived from the Russian version of Michael -- Mikhail. According to what is stated at the above posts, an angel cannot change their name because that is the purpose that God gave to them. I don't know, but I believe the purpose and name give by God is separate properties from an angel's body and powers.
Taking this into account, one could say that the purpose and name of an angel is its absolute attribute, however, its body and powers, though different and probably unique for each angel, can be changed if a spell is powerful enough, such as Angel Fall.
In the end, just because Kaori called Misha Kreuzhev as Archangel Gabriel based on the fact that she can apperently control water does not mean anything, if the purpose and name is still that of Michael. As is the reason why I believe Fiamma of the Right was after Sasha since the telesma over from her possession had the properties that of Archangel Michael, the One Similar to God and since he was aligned to Michael. Because of this, I believe that the angel summoned by Fiamma is the body and powers of Gabriel, however, with the name of Misha Kreuzhev.
This would make sense since Fiamma of the Right was trying to realign the elements, if I remembered correctly, so the world be could be in enough of a threat so his Holy Right could save it, and what better for it is to have Gabriel's body realign with it's name and purpose and defeat it.
I have yet to read light novel 4, 20, 21, 22. This just simply my rationalized speculation of things, though it would be great if someone could back me up or disprove me.
---TheGreatEye 21:16, March 11, 2011 (UTC)

Why Gabriel called herself "Misha" (= Mikhail = Michael) had been mystery for years, but it became clear that there seemed to be for the distortion of the four elements by words of Fiamma in volume 20. --Klobis 23:38, March 11, 2011 (UTC)
TheGreatEye, my view of how Misha and Gabriel relate to one another is about the same as what you have written. Klobis, what you have just put there merely states there's a distortion of the Four Elements, nothing about why Misha = Gabriel. Besides, in Vol20 Ch2 Pt8 it was stated when the 'Power of God' took the name Misha it was obvious that the angel Kanzaki fought during Angel Fall was actually Michael and not Gabriel, since Misha is a name of Michael's and not Gabriel's according to Fiamma. Add to that angels don't change their name, as the name is something given to them by God it shows Misha cannot be Gabriel, as Gabriel cannot take the name of another angel. Flere821 03:14, March 12, 2011 (UTC)

Fiamma said:

  1. Angels can't change their own names.
  2. But Gabriel called her own name "Misha" during Angel Fall.
  3. It was because of the "distortion" of the Four Elements.
  4. The "distortion" has made a chance of Angel Fall.

Please know none of Japanese fans said Misha was Michael. --Klobis 04:02, March 12, 2011 (UTC)

So, let me get this straight, correct me if there are discrepancies.
  1. An unknown event (future plot point?) that occurs before the start of the series, distorts the alignments of the angels to the Four Elements. A notable effect of this is that an angel can now bypass the naming convetion set-up by God to his angels.
  2. Angel Fall occurs making Archangel Gabriel fall from heaven, and later possess Sasha Kreuzhev, and naming herself as Misha Kreuzhev.
  3. Angel Fall is stopped by the efforts of Tsuchimikado Motoharu, however, telesma is left inside Sasha after her possession.
  4. Fiamma of the Right captures Sasha due to her nature of having the angels telesma and summons Gabriel who still calls itself Misha Kreuzhev.
  5. Fiamma of the Right successfully realigns the angels and their elements, but is shortly defeated by Touma thereafter.
  6. Gabriel now in it's normal state tries to regain the power lost and melt icecaps, Touma later punches it and is sent back to heaven
I have a few more inquires about this:
  • How does Fiamma know that there was a distortion?
  • How did he summon the angel?
  • How did he realign the angels and their alignment to the elements?
If such things are true, then you could say that Archangel Michael has yet to appear in the series other than brief references by Fiamma, which would mean this artcle has no reason to exist, and the information within should be moved to the Angel article instead.
Finally, I'd like for you to give references regarding these statements as so we can finally close this discussion.
Such as in this format since we are referring to the novels (disregarding brackets):
Statement <ref name=[Name of Reference]>[Novel Name] [Chapter Number] [Optional:Part Number] [Optional: Page Number] [Optional: (Brief summary)]</ref>
---TheGreatEye 15:32, March 12, 2011 (UTC)

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